Curse

Konig Des Todes · Nov 18, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

I think the fireball idea was the original idea, but later changed to being "meteorites" or crystals. Which was later evolved into the Abaddon Scriptures. Iirc, only Erol from the Ruins of Surmia mission says raining fire.

That's my opinion that is.

sabriel warmonger · Nov 29, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

hmm i noticd in the The Ecology of the Charr. It is said the Cauldron’s magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence. hmm sounds like maby the Ancient dragons?

Karuro · Nov 30, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

We already know it was a gift from the Titans, who are related to Abaddon.
And Abaddon just happens to have an interest for ancient artifacts, so we're still floating around the idea of it being from the dragons.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 30, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Dhuum can be seen as being asleep when he was resting and preparing for his assaults in GW1, and he would be ancient.

Abaddon, also ancient, could be seen as sleeping in our world due to his lack of interaction until Nightfall, and afterwards can be seen as sleeping within Kormir.

So right there means 3 possibilities for the Cauldron's origin. Ancient Dragons, Abaddon, and Dhuum (loosely).

Or something altogether new - something from the books perhaps. Afterall it says "fallen into sleep" and not "that have been asleep since Ancient Times." For all we know, Glint - and ancient being, could be it's origin (going to regret saying that, I know it, someone's gonna go with "ZOMG GLINT'S EVIL! I KNEW IT!).

However, I have a feeling it is more of using the magic of the Ancient Dragons, and not being made by them.

Free Runner · Nov 30, 2008, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Considering how much the GW2 articles "big up" the Ancient Dragons i think we can be sure that its talking about the dragons and not Dhuum or Abaddon. For one thing nether Dhuum or Abaddon are dormant as far as i know - Dhuum appeared to be working with Menzies and Abaddon during Nightfall.

It also says it goes back into pre history which is another hint at the Ancient Dragons. That sentence pretty much says that the thing that created the magic for it was around before history was recorded, has fallen asleep and is dormant. I dont think it could be any clearer

Konig Des Todes · Nov 30, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

I'm just trying to argue against everything being connected to the Ancient Dragons now.

And we don't know how old Abaddon and Dhuum are. And the oldest history is recorded at the gods' showing up on Tyria. But never the gods' origins.

Or history of any gods before the current ones.

And iirc, Dhuum isn't in our history. He could have been overthrown before Tyria's creation.

Free Runner · Dec 01, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

But nether are dormant. Abaddon is broken and Dhuum is weak from his previous defeat.

Also when i said about prehistory, i wasnt saying that Abaddon or Dhuum do not stretch that far back, but that the Movement of the World article mentions that the Ancient Dragons also came from beyond the point of history being recorded.

And it also mentions that they were in some kind of sleep and were dormant. Then the Ecology of the Charr mentions that the ancient entities who could of forged the Cauldrons magic were from prehistory, went into hibernation at some point and became dormant. After reading the two articles i find it impossible to think that it was not trying to hint at the dragons.

I'm not trying to create nonexistant connections with the dragons - i'm saying that the article is attempting to point a connection out.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 01, 2008, 03:45 AM // 03:45

As I said, Dhuum might have been seen as dormant between the time of his fall and returning. Also we don't know what happens in between GW1 and GW2, he might be dormant during that time. As for Abaddon, he could have been seen as dormant from Tyria between 0 AE and 1075 AE, then again within Kormir (there are GWO threads on that discussion: "Is Abaddon alive?")

Prehistory comment: Abaddon and Dhuum existed before the gods came to Tyria. The article doesn't need to mean that the beings that created the Cauldron went dormant before recorded history, just that the beings existed before recorded history.

And no, the Giganticus Lupicus does not count as recorded history because it is a guessed record, and that doesn't really count as history. It is just an educated guess. Not legit yet.

And I would like to think that Ree Soesbee is capable of "pointing us in the wrong direction." Things can be worded to sound like one thing (because it is the first thing to come to our mind) but might mean something else.

I am simply bringing out other possibilities. I'm not say "No, it is not the Ancient Dragons." but instead saying "Why can't it be something other then the Ancient Dragon?"

Free Runner · Dec 01, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

And no, the Giganticus Lupicus does not count as recorded history because it is a guessed record, and that doesn't really count as history. It is just an educated guess. Not legit yet.

It counts as the starting point of recorded history. It may just be a guess but that is the first thing ever recorded.

Quote:

And I would like to think that Ree Soesbee is capable of "pointing us in the wrong direction." Things can be worded to sound like one thing (because it is the first thing to come to our mind) but might mean something else.

True but then we should ask why would she want to point us in the wrong direction in the GW2 backstory which is already vague as it is. Its also not just wording - it takes the things known about the dragons and then places them together into a sentence.

Quote:

I am simply bringing out other possibilities. I'm not say "No, it is not the Ancient Dragons." but instead saying "Why can't it be something other then the Ancient Dragon?"

I could say the same thing about Dhuum. Infact Dhuum has the most things attributed to him when theories come up - even more than the dragons.

Anyway getting back to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I think the fireball idea was the original idea, but later changed to being "meteorites" or crystals. Which was later evolved into the Abaddon Scriptures. Iirc, only Erol from the Ruins of Surmia mission says raining fire.

Quote:

Anson: "Not really. I just recall blinding flashes of light and fire falling from the sky. I think the world ended, but I'm not sure."

Quote:

Then came the invasion, and with it, the Searing.

Anyone alive today will remember the day the lands of Ascalon were blasted and torn with magic fire.

Quite a few things mention fire raining from the sky in the searing. Its possible that it was actually fire that brought down crystals with it. That would at least explain why the earth is scorched so badly from giant crystals.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 01, 2008, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

It counts as the starting point of recorded history. It may just be a guess but that is the first thing ever recorded.

Not the first thing recorded, but the earliest time recorded. Before recorded history, imo, would mean before history was being recorded. \

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

True but then we should ask why would she want to point us in the wrong direction in the GW2 backstory which is already vague as it is. Its also not just wording - it takes the things known about the dragons and then places them together into a sentence.

The Movement of the World is about GW2 backstory. The Ecology of the Charr is the Charr backstory, both GW1 and GW2 backstory, and the information on the Cauldron of Cataclysm is in the Ecology of the Charr, so this information can be viewed as general GW background, not simply GW2 background.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I could say the same thing about Dhuum. Infact Dhuum has the most things attributed to him when theories come up - even more than the dragons.

I think that is because there was no hint of Abaddon until Nightfall came out (aside from Abaddon's Mouth). And Dhuum has been around longer then the Ancient Dragons. We've only known about the Ancient Dragons since the Movement of the World *before it wasn't really sure what they were*, Dhuum we knew about since Prophecies came out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Quite a few things mention fire raining from the sky in the searing. Its possible that it was actually fire that brought down crystals with it. That would at least explain why the earth is scorched so badly from giant crystals.

I would argue it to be the other way. The crystals brought down fire when entering the atmosphere. The fire burned the land while the crystals kicked up dust covering plants and blocking the sun for a bit - preventing immediate plant growth.

This would also be attributed with the Crystal Desert - not sure if I mentioned here, but over on GWO, people believe that the cauldron copy in the Crystal Overlook was used by Abaddon and his followers and created the meteorite shower in the Scriptures of Abaddon. The Crystals made the desert - via erosion from the remaining water, the fire evaporated some of the water.

Free Runner · Dec 01, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Not the first thing recorded, but the earliest time recorded. Before recorded history, imo, would mean before history was being recorded.

The first thing ever recorded (guess or not) would still be the earliest time ever recorded. The last signs of the Giganticus Lupicus was placed on a guess at 10,000 BE. Thats the basic starting point of known history - 10,000 BE - anything before 10,000 BE was never recorded hence it being before history was recorded.

Quote:

I think that is because there was no hint of Abaddon until Nightfall came out (aside from Abaddon's Mouth). And Dhuum has been around longer then the Ancient Dragons. We've only known about the Ancient Dragons since the Movement of the World *before it wasn't really sure what they were*, Dhuum we knew about since Prophecies came out.

My point was that we used to (and in some cases still do ie the Mysterious Stranger) place Dhuum behind everything despite there being no evidence. The Ancient Dragons share all the conditions of the "ancient entities" - we know they do from reading the Movement of the World, and seeing them in GW1.

However we dont know if Dhuum or Abaddon share these conditions - we're only guessing there. As far as we know, Abaddon is broken and Dhuum was last seen commanding his forces to aid Abaddon. Abaddon wasnt dormant during his imprisonment ether - he was furthering his plans of escape.

Quote:

This would also be attributed with the Crystal Desert - not sure if I mentioned here, but over on GWO, people believe that the cauldron copy in the Crystal Overlook was used by Abaddon and his followers and created the meteorite shower in the Scriptures of Abaddon. The Crystals made the desert - via erosion from the remaining water, the fire evaporated some of the water.

Doesnt the same scripture also say that whatever Abaddon used, caused the seas to boil and rupture and create a powerful Maelstrom?

Konig Des Todes · Dec 01, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

The first thing ever recorded (guess or not) would still be the earliest time ever recorded. The last signs of the Giganticus Lupicus was placed on a guess at 10,000 BE. Thats the basic starting point of known history - 10,000 BE - anything before 10,000 BE was never recorded hence it being before history was recorded.

Not sure if you get what I mean. I mean that the GL wasn't the first thing recorded, but in the timeline, took place earliest. Occuring first doesn't always mean being recorded first, and that is what I was meaning.

My point was that we used to (and in some cases still do ie the Mysterious Stranger) place Dhuum behind everything despite there being no evidence. The Ancient Dragons share all the conditions of the "ancient entities" - we know they do from reading the Movement of the World, and seeing them in GW1.

However we dont know if Dhuum or Abaddon share these conditions - we're only guessing there. As far as we know, Abaddon is broken and Dhuum was last seen commanding his forces to aid Abaddon. Abaddon wasnt dormant during his imprisonment ether - he was furthering his plans of escape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Doesnt the same scripture also say that whatever Abaddon used, caused the seas to boil and rupture and create a powerful Maelstrom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scriptures of Abaddon

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

When extreme heat touches something cool, what do you think will happen?

Explosions. The water would boil - just as a pot of water over a stove would - and the Crystals would explode from the heat touching the cool water.

Maelstrom, or a whirlpool, could have been occured by a air pocket being opened up by a falling crystal - i.e., a side affect.

And something you missed: Transformation of the sky into a "midnight void," which, well when the searing occursed the sky turned red. Nothing to deny that a stronger caster causes a more powerful "searing" - which in effect turns the sky darker. Also note that there is a climate/location difference which could lead to the sky not being as clear. Could have been a cloudier day, possibly misty like described in the beginning of the scriptures.

But here's a kicker. The scriptures doesn't say if it was during the day or night - it just says "on the 51st day" which could mean daytime or nighttime - if it was night then it could have simply darkened the sky to block out the starlight. Or, if day, an eclipse could have happened - a coincidence believed to be the power of Abaddon. Or a different spell.

I know that last part you'll say "you're just making things up" but all plausible, and I hold to the first paragraph of the midnight void sky. Just thought I'd bring up other possibilities. I love doing that.

Free Runner · Dec 02, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

I think you forgot to add some quote tags there

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

When extreme heat touches something cool, what do you think will happen?

Explosions. The water would boil - just as a pot of water over a stove would - and there would be explosions from the heat touching the cool water.

Maelstrom, or a whirlpool, could have been occured by a air pocket being opened up by a falling crystal - i.e., a side affect.

And something you missed: Transformation of the sky into a "midnight void," which, well when the searing occursed the sky turned red. Nothing to deny that a stronger caster causes a more powerful "searing" - which in effect turns the sky darker. Also note that there is a climate/location difference which could lead to the sky not being as clear. Could have been a cloudier day, possibly misty like described in the beginning of the scriptures.

But here's a kicker. The scriptures doesn't say if it was during the day or night - it just says "on the 51st day" which could mean daytime or nighttime - if it was night then it could have simply darkened the sky to block out the starlight. Or, if day, an eclipse could have happened - a coincidence believed to be the power of Abaddon. Or a different spell.

True but i cant help reading the scripture differently. If the "stars" caused the water to boil up surely it should of read like this:

Quote:

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada causing the seas to boil and rupture, giving birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

Also when reading it:

Quote:

And gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

I get the impression that the maelstrom was the cause of the sky becoming the midnight void. It could just be Anet wording everything strangely. Or it could be that it was the Cauldrons magic being used, and Abaddon threw in some of his power over water to make sure the job was done.

BladeWind · Dec 03, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Random.

Palawa Joko's Golden staff.

In the bonus mission pack he has it , and then again when you free him.

He is very old, and that staff is very unique, no?

or am i just being silly.

~Frozenwind

Neo Atomisk · Dec 03, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

I'll look into joko's staff, but I'm guessing it's not an uberpowerful weapon.

Neo Atomisk · Dec 03, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

I'll look into joko's staff, but I'm guessing it's not an uberpowerful weapon.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 03, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Joko's Staff is something of interest, as there is a quest about it, which talks about it being powerful. But Ancient, I don't think so.

@ Free Runner:

We don't know how scientific the people of Tyria were back in 1 BE, they might not have known the whole heat+cool=explosion and the boiling thing as being possible quickly.

The Maelstrom, which at second look seems to be more of a black hole not a whirlpool, I'll have to think on.

Gmr Leon · Dec 04, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

This would also be attributed with the Crystal Desert - not sure if I mentioned here, but over on GWO, people believe that the cauldron copy in the Crystal Overlook was used by Abaddon and his followers and created the meteorite shower in the Scriptures of Abaddon. The Crystals made the desert - via erosion from the remaining water, the fire evaporated some of the water.

Er..Personally, that's not my view of it. I took it as being created partly due to Abaddon's magic when he struck down the Forgotten armada, causing a slight decrease in the water level via evaporation as you said, but not that it was caused by the usage of the cauldron copy in the Crystal Overlook. I think it was purely Abaddon's magic at work there, not an artifact's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel the Assassin

When extreme heat touches something cool, what do you think will happen?

Explosions. The water would boil - just as a pot of water over a stove would - and there would be explosions from the heat touching the cool water.

Er..What? Since when does water explode in contact with something extremely hot? Boil, yes, turn into steam, yes, but I have never seen water explode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel the Assassin

But here's a kicker. The scriptures doesn't say if it was during the day or night - it just says "on the 51st day" which could mean daytime or nighttime - if it was night then it could have simply darkened the sky to block out the starlight.

Twilight sky seems to hint at evening, at the very least.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 04, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..What? Since when does water explode in contact with something extremely hot? Boil, yes, turn into steam, yes, but I have never seen water explode.

The water doesn't explode, but the solid. When you take something that has been heated to an extreme temperature, then poor cool water on it (or other way around), the solid cracks and depending on the temperature difference, can explode upon cracking. In this case, the crystals would crack and explode under the surface causing an explosion underwater. From observation it would look like the water explodes, not the crystal.

Gmr Leon · Dec 04, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

In that case, I see what you mean. However, it is very unclear in your post that you mean the crystals themselves and not the water.